Ep.1 Making Shoes for Millions | Esther Kute

Introduction

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welcome to Africa design the show that takes African design to the world brought to you

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by Nairobi design me I'm Adrian Kavita on this episode we're speaking with Esther Cote Esther

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as the former head of design a part of Kenya she's the youngest the first female and the  first African to hold the position within the company in this conversation we discussed our

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first break into the industry working with men footwear design arguing with the boss's boss

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negotiating salaries launching shoes in Milan mentorship and much more be sure to visit my

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Ruby design recom and subscribe to our channel for more african design and leave a review or

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comment to let us know what you thought thank you they say esther thank you for joining us and it's

Interview start

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a real real pleasure to have your time here I know you're you've had a very busy decade or so so and

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you're someone in the Kenyan design industry who's really made it through you could say an

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entire career path so it's really interesting to be able to have this conversation with you so be

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great to just find out how how did you get into design in the first place okay Thank You Adrian

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for having me well I studied design in University of Nairobi in my undergrad yes and to be honest I

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didn't like it because I wanted to do architecture so I was called to university and I kept hoping

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when they say design they mean architecture so for a long time for the first year second year

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I was not the best of students of design students I'd miss classes you know I mean a tour you know

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stuff like that then in the idea for actually the second yet was the end of the second year

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in the university I was drafted into a program with an NGO called Terra Nova by my lecturer one

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of my lecturers and I remember telling her I'm busy and she's like doing words you have to get

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this done so it was a collaboration between this Italian organization Terranova the University of

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Nairobi and the duo Kylie industry in Canada so basically in formal sector and what would happen

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is the students at the University of Nairobi design students us would be partnered with the

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Jew Akali artisans so for me for example in the first years but not with the tailor's yes based

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in Congaree and Kikuyu yes so I would go there and the job boards for us to come into their business

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and show them how to use the design process yes to make products so you're no longer just I don't

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know patching up clothes so includes your like okay so who is my customer why am I making these

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clothes for them you know my target market stuff like that you know how do I choose the colors to

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compliment each other yeah so I have to say I always say that's the time I fell in love with

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design because and specifically textile design because when I ended up majoring in textile and

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fashion design yeah because terranova was a very intensive project you would go to the field and at

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the end of it we did it two years and at the end of it we have an exhibition where people

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would come and buy your products and you know there's this thing I always say design as iPods  small goods because then you you had this idea in your mind you've worked with this artisan and

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you make a product that is beautiful and someone comes and then buy and they tell you this is so

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beautiful and you know you were taught something like costing for example how to make your product  and cost it's what you say it without making a loss but not over pricing it and it was so funny

Esther's graduation project

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when you went to the markets people would come by in my products with the artisan and they'd  be like but this is so cheap I think you should make it more expensive I'm like what you know

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so it was really nice I think that woke me up to design and since then I've always been passionate

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about design yeah so that's how I started anything okay okay so you started with fashion and textiles

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instead of architecture and then I kind of let you naturally find your path as well yeah it's

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interesting because now in our fourth year of studies we do our final year project so you're  supposed to do a research paper in the first semester where you identify a topic and then

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you research about it go to field and do a paper you write a thesis about it then in the second

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semester you do a practical based on the feces that you can so for me I decided I did paper on

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recycling and reusing of textile waste because it was so interesting I noticed people would throw

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away shoes can you imagine you're walking and you just find old shoes thrown into the dustbin bugs  thrown into the dustbin you know stuff like that so I was wondering how then can we utilize this

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products and make a design business out of it so I ended up making a fashion collection for me man

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and it was inclusive of birds shoes wallets you know things like that and I was using recycled

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material that's a textile waste yeah so get like an old jacket for example cherry top cut

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it up into a bug and I was also using old okay not really but the indigenous practices that were used

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by textile designer Textil practices in Africa so I'll get let's say how would we get the old

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leather jackets leave them and then stitch them into something or kills I would get an old sweater

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and then remove that friends and then knit it back or crochet back of cuff you know yeah so it was a

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very cool project and one of the things that I did was also make shoes so of course then I was not a  shoe designer but then again with the oil ever jackets and sweaters I designed a collection I

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got a an artisan from Kabira who I actually worked with in on the chernova project yes so they made

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for me a shoe collection so the funny thing is during the exhibition we call it a pinup because

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that's when they it's a it's an examination basically mm-hmm you can hang up your exactly  the power so you come into it's like an exhibition you'd walk in and you'd find zero my products and

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you know when you go to an auction or a sale and then they put a red dot to show you something I've

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been sold that was my teen up people had bought my bugs my wireless my shoes you know yeah so it

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was super funny exactly yeah that's really made me real like okay so I can actually do this mm-hmm so

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have you seen on the you know the youths clothing is a big big issue in Kenya coming from abroad and

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obviously as well preventing local manufacturing to get up to its potential have you seen any other

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project since your graduation maybe from students or any others using waste textiles oh wow maybe

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not Wes textile as such but maybe I can move back into my previous video as a Footwear designer yes

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there's the project where this organization took used flip-flops pata pata and cut them

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up and made a boots out of it so this okay yes I mean I was working for butter they were actually

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using total waste as sure you know and it was so impressive to me that they actually made an

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actual boat out of this I mean it looked really beautiful another project I noticed which was done

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several years ago I cannot remember who did it no but I think the National Museum was involved and

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they again used recycled waste from sea floor and they made the lion sculpture ocean sole in

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oceans so yeah so they made the lion sculptures and bless them all over the city so you'd be

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walking and you're like oh yes so that was very cool - isn't it there's a beautiful yeah I agree

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those two projects flip-floppy is great because it's really a statement you know yeah was there

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any way for someone like buttah to get involved in in those projects with offcuts or not oh yes

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because much of course keeps a lot of the business side I think quiet you know but

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butter recycles a lot of things yes in terms of manufacturing a lot of the materials that

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we would use we will do cycle and reuse so you'd find even flip-up sometimes would get all filters

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brought back to us and would cut them up and crushed into granules and then we use them in

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their products that we make yeah so that is very good for the environment and one of the projects  was walking in to a street meet 2018 to 2019 nut butter the global organization has this strategy

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to increase sustainability may about I think 10 percent by 2020 so what happened is we form the

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committee and the idea was every country was to come up with projects that increase the stability

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whether it's using recycling we're making improving lives you know when they coming up

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with an innovation product something like that yeah so I was heading the well I was heading

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the creation of these projects in Kenya and I'm happy to say by the time was living butter and

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actually we had actually implemented them five projects so it was the highest in Africa and the

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second highest project implemented in butter global yeah so was the chromed up rubber one

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of those projects well since we were in create a new project yes that was already happening so

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where does this the recycled rubber does it go back into soles yes into souls into gum boots

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into few flops whichever it is yes so you'll find a lot of been used and recycled material in the

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product okay yeah can you tell us about any of the other projects you have well I work to learn

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well the sustainability ones let's stop Oh am I

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[Laughter] so how did you how did you start a better what was your way in there yes you remember

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in my final year project I have done shoes and of course there's are like whoa Susan Martha yeah and

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I always want to talk about that's the thing even when Oceana my dad butter is synonymous with Kenya

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anyone who's a Kenyan has grown up with butter you know we and that we've grown up people go Martha

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fiery butter fatter you don't have you were just cool Tuffy's you know so my dad had this thing  where if you go to the doctor and you're feeling a little you know down he takes you to a butter

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shop yeah to get your shoes and then you're you're happy now nice yeah and it's so funny I'll just

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be like oh so what if we do this as a shop guys what if we change it like this what if we do it

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like this you know but I was a child so I about am always put with butter and even my friends told me

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you're the only person you've ever had whose face they want to walk with butter everyone thinks much  is a global company it doesn't have let's see an office in cannery everyone used to think but

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is either owned by the government or yes so when I did my project butter advertised for designers and

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that time a classmate of mine was working there for me one after I left University I'm going to

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work at a fashion brand yes so up for about a year yes so he said okay I think you should

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come interview I was like okay so I went with my portfolio I think like what for your so be

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like a very practical you know 3-meter fabric that you screen printed yes our bill is go with a taxi

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and you know bugs and bugs foods or prototypes anything like that good yes I did an interview

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they each are my needs are it was fantastic you know and then they just went quiet so I thought  well well [ __ ] never went through yes I went back to work as I doing my Master's I've been

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Monsieur Robie so one day I get a call I was in I was even doing um affair company I was doing I

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was making product now using their worst textile so what I'll do is I'll go to geek ombre market  this is like an informal market buy second-hand clothes jacket they make bugs out of it and those

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selling this yeah so I mean I really know is in my touch way I think I just come from you come back  I was sitting right in front of the speaker and I get a call and I'm like yeah who is this I can't

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tell you they like oh I'm calling you from pattern they go but a relic yeah we would like you to come

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in on Monday and I'm like okay cool um so I go I photos being called for another interview Oh turns

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out actually calling me to hire me yeah this is like six I think it must have been a year or so

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okay Wow okay so it was a while yes because I go back to you exactly just I had sort of

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forgotten that and even interviewed you them yeah so when they call me back I thought it was another  interview actually what hiring me yeah so when they hired me as it was to be a graduate trainee

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so there else to be trained now to become a future designer yeah and it was so funny cuz when I was

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joining the department it was just not me and my boss yes the PD manager product development

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manager yes so it was interesting because at that time we were now setting up other product

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development departments in Africa so my boss was travelling quite a lot and it always sells

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thrown into the deep end because I joined another trainee I didn't have an idea how to design a shoe

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but then I had to now start design issues that are going to be made in a factory and you have

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a team of men who have been in the industry for like thirty years you know they know what they're

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doing and they come to me I tell you every morning it was always like a commission of men coming to

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tell me the problems we are facing in the industry that I have to solve yeah so I always say by being

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thrown into the deep end I had to learn faster which became an advantage to me because then

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I learned very quickly I also launched how to work with all the you know when you work

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with older people who are more experienced than you you start to understand ok so this is how I  should handle myself yeah so even the team are supervising within the department because we had

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sample makers for example yeah these are guys who knew a lot so I had to learn how to listen

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to them so you don't you don't assume you know everything yeah so over time you learn that as

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much as you are supervising someone you're also collaborating with them because because if they

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don't we try it you both fail so then I that's how I grew I remember we had the regional you

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know to a companies multinational companies group their countries mm-hm so little bit of course they

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developed markets emerging markets you know the cloud so for us Kenya fell under the emerging

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markets and our regional head was based in South Africa and he used to say do not you know in a

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devotee no vase copy and that always argue with him and everyone was afraid of him so in meetings

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you know the way you're in a meeting and you're supposed to keep said because the boss is speaking  he would say something like do not innovate copy and to be like no we had designed us our job is to

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design and so I in fact I think people especially after you get fired you need to stop speaking to

Video of conversation starts

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you need to stop arguing with the moon because it's the boss of my boss of my boss or Nestle you  know I kept on telling him no I'm a I'm a designer my job is to create I cannot just copy yeah so we

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would have this makan for salads and everyone used to tell me esta you will get fed when they stop  again with the boss the big big boss but it paid out because one day I'm called to the the managing

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directors office and he tells me I've gotten an email from the regional manager and he wants you  to run this project and the idea was to repurpose or rebrand pata pata so he wanted to create a new

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look for pata pata and we were going to work with communities based in Kenya to develop a

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collection so they put me in charge of of scouting for groups so we found groups like Azuri there's

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nama Jana this is a women's group like Qasr is a fair trade group where single mothers are hired

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and basically they make bean out of fire T yes then ama Jana was a group of women Maasai women

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who actually would have beaded our product while hiding goats and sitting under a tree from your

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virgin yeah yeah so I was I cut it quite a number of how can I sell a grid in Kenya that we could

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walk with because it was a sustainable 80 kind of project yeah and then we came up with a completely  new branding so imagine you're working in Kenya's but you have teams of designers working in China

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working in Europe working in ok Africa you know it was really a fantastic project and you ended

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up developing a collection patapata shanti the bead so we have a strap and the design on you

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it's not obvious when I tell you and then you know I don't know so if we have an all-over team

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that we are putting on the sole of the shoe and this is from the top so how on the top so how did

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the rubber pieces go to hold your toes yes so this truck of course we have the patta platter

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so assuming this is your cutter cutter utopia mm-hmm your strap will come here like that if

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I just make it wait there for you to see us the zebra stripes come here so with these reliefs just

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in Kenya or East Africa or all over globally so you have so this is another question I wanted to

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ask you is because batter you you said you grew up on batter yes so did I in Eastern

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Europe because it's a Czech company correct so so it seems like a company that established a

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few markets quite early on yes and then really integrated into those markets in some way yes

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the way butter works from what I've seen it's it's it gives each company autonomy so that's

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yes it's global but if you ask a Kenyan if butters I can uncover the say yes owned by the government

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yes if you go to Czech Republic exactly but is the shack company owned by the government

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uh-huh Nigerians I was surprised but even was in Nigeria you know West Africa everyone thinks the

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same way but I don't of the day it's actually owned by a family the butterfat me in fact i

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we really met the fourth generation is gonna take over from there it's not a public business

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and it must be for the Czech Republic it must be quite a big big company as well very huge in

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fact we have we have something called butter Fashion Weekend that was a project that was

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mentioned globally which is really fantastic and it leads me to talk to one of the other  project what I love about butter when I became a senior manager in 2017 I I was the first woman

Esther on being the first to hold her position at Bata, and what changes she wanted brought.

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first Kenyan first black person the youngest to ever held that office before so if for me

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it was very exciting and I remember asking myself so what what what change will I make when I get

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to this office you know I don't want to just get there and then continue doing the same thing if  ernest has been doing because before the guys would hold the office the product development

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manager in charge of designing there are always men from Europe from Asia yeah so I was like okay

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I'm a Kenyan I know the problems design a space in Kenya so the first thing I did it's like hit

Bata Designers Apprentice & Bata Young Designers

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the road running was to found the butter designers apprentice yes so we I don't we walk through the

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universities in this case University of Nairobi and the technical capacity of Kenya they sent us

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designers who are interested in participating so we had four and they did the persuasion a  competition yeah so they were to come up with a product a shoe phone that you can sell and in the

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process they were going to learn about not just designing but how as a designer you incorporate

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yourself into a multi-level company that is a retail brand in a manufacturing brand yeah so

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they would we worked with the upcoming guys also in Kenya people who had marketing like

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brand Banda their writer like because Zulu Nairobi Design Week you know so what you do we we organize

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challenges for the designers so it's not just going to a class and learning it's interactive

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yes so we created content around that yeah so for example they we go to a fashion blogger

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Sharon and the designers favorite shoes were white woman so the designers were to come up

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with a painting challenge where they customize the shoes and she pick what she likes and you

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know the funny thing is once we did not challenge it created a trend that is continuing up to now  people are just painting on home our own order but you know and it's so cool every time I see

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it I'm like oh my gosh this actually created it's a result of butter designers Apprentice

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yeah yeah so it was fantastic it's like in 2017 ended in 2018 we got we lost Cynthia Leila and

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then this runner-up Ian Abraham you go to Kashia was in fact Ian was telling us he bought a camera

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yeah so the beautiful thing and we're now seeing butter Fashion Week and the global company had

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about another president oh we love that and we've been doing butter Fashion Week and so  next year we want you guys to become part of it and they've only been working with a Italian Czech

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company so we were the first African company to be incorporated also the first company out of Europe

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be part of butter Fashion Weekend and they have a challenge called butter young designers challenge

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yeah so what happened this time around we walked with the six designers I think 16 students from

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University of Nairobi again went through the process of mentorship apprenticeship for them

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to understand what does we take two as you're designing what do you also what you do to be part

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of an organization that is multinational I don't know a global company yeah then the two finalists

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got to travel to shack Republic so this time it was Cyprian and a lady I forget her name oh yes

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so the two of them got to travel to Czech Republic they participated in butter Fashion Weekend and  you know it's a huge thing it's like going to my New York Fashion Week yeah they even had proper

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celebrities they're like whoa and they met there now global the butter familiy the CEO you know

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it was very cool for them yeah so I was really proud of that moment you know the fact that butter

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different as apprentice graduating into the global but young designers challenge so that was really

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those are some of the projects that I really like and then the other project that I really  liked that we worked on was there's this brand called Edwin Edwin is owned by Bono did you top

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one of their roxtor Rogers problem edu n yes so they approached us and we were to collaborate to

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develop our collection for suffering at pata pata yes and then once we did the collection guess what

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it featured in Vogue magazine and featured in New York Fashion Week yeah so it's I mean I always say

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my my my life in butter was very different from a lot of the other people in butter because then I I

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got to participate in a lot of global with de Vos teammates you know like a multidisciplinary kind

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of teammates so you're working with the CEO of the company you're working with the managing director  also working with your sample makers and I mean collaborating with brands trying to make a change

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you know the community so it was really very fulfilling for me I think yeah and I guess a lot

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of designers or creatives going into the industry sometimes don't realize that the the career path

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isn't set yes so everything that you are learning and in your process is somehow potentially going

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to contribute you know I was complaining when I was getting my B and chemistry at school but when

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my first graduate job was working for a chemical company with design then it suddenly made made

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much more sense yes exactly who knew that I'd use chemistry because you know it's chemistry

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is also material science it's extremely important to understand these things and every other subject

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can somehow contribute something to your your career right I mean for shoes for example there

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you're talking about chemistry if you're making shoes from injected plastics plastics shrink once

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they're cold so that is chemistry like that like I would walk a lot with our laboratory because

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then we would have to don't have to be prescribed material that will not over shrink so imagine our

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making a shoe as ice for pass when it's supposed to air it but once it's injection edge becomes

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cool its size to personal car narrating yeah yeah and those are the challenges would face

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when you're doing development now for design you know yeah so you have you you also come to  learn that you you have talked with a lot of different people from not just designers you

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have to work with the marketers you have to work with the salespeople it's so funny I think design

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becomes the most collaborative discipline in the world I think the more collaborative you are as a

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designer the father you'll grow yeah I think to me it certainly seems like we get to obviously we we

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may have our set of skills but we get to work with but and show our naivety and then use their skills

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to try and solve some of their problems you listen to someone's problem from a different industry and

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then you create a solution that still suits their industry but with the design process in it you

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know we design thinking basically yes I know yeah and the manufacturing people don't realize you

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know consumers don't realize that it may take Y it may take two years to develop a pair of flip-flops

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it took us three years by the time we finished that project we all hated it anyone would mention

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Ashanti and you're like please keep quiet because we had I think it had gotten to a point where I

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remember we were supposed to ship out like a pilot shipment I think you're supposed to

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be 20 cut ones each ten pairs about 200 pairs and I'm telling you they're rubber we were using four

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because the the rubber compound to use the sword was supposed to be softer and more luxurious you

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know and it was shrinking there I'm telling you you make it a size 10 it should suffice for yes

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so we are trying to fix this problem and it is not working we did the time but you are supposed  to I'm telling you it was a day I remember we were in the office myself my boss at the time

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was the PD manager and then company manager can imagine a whole company manager packing slip flow

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into cutters which we can ship them out because we have a deadline to reach and that's that's

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another interesting thing that you know your work is like sometimes you're just expected to

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do things that it's a hustle its entrepreneurship you know the boss doesn't look down on the job of

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packing flip-flops because that's another thing is if those flip-flops don't get packed the sales

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don't get made eventually and this could have a much larger impact because I think a lot of the

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time maybe junior staff don't realize how much impact they're having on an organization yes and

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I think for me being a senior manager getting to management taught me a lot about there how

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can I say you know when we say ignorance is nice when you're a junior in a company oh my god you

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really enjoy a lot of ignorance we would go to board meetings and your tools we have to cost  cut this year we have to cost cut four hundred thousand US dollars and you know they'll not even

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tell you how to do it they're like figure it out it's your job as a senior manager how do you do it  then how do I save the company 40 million Kenyan shillings in a year you know and you know you're

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not supposed to fire anyone but you're supposed to make a saving but the easiest thing is PI  everyone you know so and I started to understand the amount of pressure people go through I always

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say every time I observe people in power look for example like Obama by the time Obama was leaving

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the White House he looked like an old one he had white hair look at Obama now he has swag he looks

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like a fatty old guy just chilling why because there are so many tough decisions to be made every

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single time so I think any time you as a designer you work with some money in power or let's try to

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put yourself in that position I think that taught me a lot it was the best experience I've ever had

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because then I've worked I think for me working in the same company as a junior you know designer and

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then now as a senior manager you start to see both sides and you start to understand ah ah so this is

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why this is done you know and I remember reading somewhere the boss knows why but you is not the

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boss feeling will know what you understand so your boss will come and tell you sweep this place you

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don't know why but you spit the boss knows why and that's why they're the boss so if you want to get

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to the point where you're a boss whether it's you running your own company or you being the boss in  a company that is run by someone else you have to start understanding why things are done yes yeah

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otherwise my I think my first my first manager always told me as well always be looking up and

32:01

down because the people above you you should really be looking at how to help them fulfill

32:08

their objectives so that they can look higher and help you and that you can be managing than people

32:14

below you so that they are aware of why they are doing what they're doing so that they are aware

32:20

of the importance of that exactly actually the best for me one of the best advice I ever got

32:28

was make your boss's life easier the moment you make your money just boss I mean your money just

32:35

like yeah I love you forever yeah and you you will get hurt a lot of things just because of that yeah

32:44

because actually that's the thing when you when you do things that maybe aren't asked of you yeah

32:49

you know all shouldn't be asked of you then you you really get a step up when when you drop the

32:56

ball yeah because they'll be like well I made a mistake but yes they try this is the person who

33:03

gets things done this is the person who sees ahead you know yeah don't wait to be told to  do something if you can do it without being told you know yeah it's very it's it's a it's a thing

33:14

I don't know maybe you see as creatives we we suffer from a lack of discipline even myself

33:21

when when I look at my younger self and now I've really developed a sense of discipline that I did

33:27

not have we sleep wherever we in fact we like saying I'm not a morning person you know but

33:33

then if you go into an industry where people are mourning for people what happens do you want do

33:38

you want let's say the president of Kenya to meet you at night because you're not a morning person  yeah because your target should be if you're a squatter for example you should be a thing

33:47

okay I want to make up cut to a bust you know made out of cast iron of the president of Kenya yeah so

33:53

you're going to be like okay so I'll be meeting him at midnight because I'm not a morning person  you know yeah if you're if you're going to to run projects you will have to learn project management

34:05

for example and sometimes you don't have to go to school to learn project management but you have  to have basically to be able to manage a team imagine managing a team that is not best like

34:16

in the same location as you are you're managing a team sub based in China time zones are different

34:22

so based in Europe time zones are different you're managing a team where some people are I don't know

34:29

I never learn you some people watch on much higher level than you so how then do you deal with this

34:34

it's discipline basically yeah so creatives at some point we do like this so it holds us back

34:40

so I think we can't use it as an excuse anymore yeah we you sort of have to realize and almost

34:47

used to tell my boss honest and then he would love every time I would go negotiate my salary  I'll tell you you know my business yeah the way butter is a business I am a business and currently

34:59

I'm working at a Louis and you'd love okay it's a professional examination so you have to think

35:06

of yourself even though you're an individual as a business yeah sometimes the business could be  doing something purely based on CSR that's okay volunteer mentorship like for me I really I think

35:18

my my one major thing was I want to mentor as much as I can give back because I feel I've gotten to

35:25

the level who I am as a designer purely because of the people who mented me yes yes like the lecturer  who signed me up for Terranova she changed my life souse out yes Francisco dunno University

35:37

of Nairobi oh yes because without that I may never have loved design as much as I love design oh yeah

35:46

professor dodge pedo he was my supervisor for my masters yeah and actually okay also my undergrad

35:53

actually yes he is a product designer but we were doing textile design we were only three the class

36:00

and we did not have a supervisor because there are no textile designers and we we had a group

36:07

we had a meeting at the three of us and we're like okay we think all Doge could teach us because he's  a very he has interests in a lot of design he's not those he's not narrow-minded it's very broad

36:17

vision yes he actually taught me last be brought don't just narrow your mind to one thing and we

36:24

went to the school the director of the school and we convinced her to get her Dutch to be  our supervisor honestly he his way of thinking you talk to any designer in Kenya they will tell

36:38

you he's touched their life positively in one or another yeah so currently the director of

36:44

school at technical capacity of Kenya yes design then there's a doctor Suki Suki mundo for her I

36:53

think what I took away from Sookie was excellent she does not she does not want things that are

36:59

not excellent and I know perfection is not good but sometimes aiming for perfection mix mix you

37:06

learn that 80% or 90% you get as opposed to being like yeah whatever you know creative how yeah yeah

37:13

okay I'm in the mood for you know whatever yeah so she got me out of that mentality of whatever

37:19

when you do something do it to the best of your ability yeah and if you look at the designers

37:25

were celebrated globally look at ivy what's his name they designer for journey I don't know

37:31

yeah I mean obsessive obsessive yeah I honestly wish I could be that obsessive because I am NOT

37:39

what she might be my nature but look at how just become I mean we are sitting in front of an April

37:46

designed for that mm-hmm it's just amazing how obsessive really he went obsessively after

38:03

perfection basically it was never about this can do let's move on it was no it has to work and it

38:10

has to work right then yes and I think the other thing that I noticed you see in Kenya in school

38:19

I'm trained to be a product designer unfortunately product design is sort of dying we are moving into

38:26

industrial design yeah and I'm sure for you you saw it when you're in Europe yeah you sure you

38:32

actually trained more as an industrial designer yeah we had so my university had a BSC which

38:40

was called product design and technology and a BA which was called industrial design and technology  so the BSC was more focused around engineering electronics and mechanics their technical skills

38:54

and then our degree was more focused around the human studies understanding of emotion in fact my

39:00

thesis was around designed for emotion so it was very much kind of human centered that's where I

39:06

kind of choose to chose to go but when I started University Johnny I've was the guy right it was

39:13

the he was the one that I think most upcoming aspiring product designers wanted want it to

39:20

be and I think what is really important is to remember that these things that look so simple

39:28

to us from the outside the more simple something is the more complicated it was to execute exactly

39:34

because the original computer had cables and a mouse of the you know everything was connected

39:39

then it had a separate Tower and now we're just down to a single screen that good designers about

39:46

what you take away but they say I think you're just Mary in Monroe it wasn't even a designer she

39:56

used to say if you look at yourself after you've dressed up and you're going out for example and

40:01

you think something is wrong start by removing the last thing you put on yourself so if it was makeup

40:07

remove the makeup if it was earrings remove the earrings you know yeah simplicity well if it is

40:13

it is genius actually genius is simplicity yes a lot of people think someone like you're not the

40:21

da Vinci a lot of people think he's a genius and I used to think he's a genius and at some point I  got obsessed with him I used to be like wow this guy is very inspirational to me you know and I'd

40:32

read up about him and not be like what scales not a genius he's just curious you know yeah

40:39

like he had the habit of doing something over and over and over and it was no working yeah and he

40:47

also had vast interests you know so he he actually invented people say he was the inventor of surgery

40:54

as we know it now although maybe there's a group of African women who we found invented there it's

41:01

before Julius Caesar yeah but he turns out he was his interests were not just enough yes it was

41:11

you science it was maybe thing it was in military like helicopters time you know and what how did he

41:22

learn he did go to school to learn it he actually did a lot of observation huh there's a dairy that

41:28

was found for your Anatomy G and you just so funny to me because you know they're you're writing here

41:33

to-do list one of them was to go see Kigali no yes to attend Galileo's lecture and hahahaha

41:44

yeah so for him it was those things of like Jesus I think if they are doing instead of being to go

41:52

meet Jesus you know about religion or something like that so as a designer apart from being able

41:59

to create simple products you have to start being curious you really have to be a curious person and

42:05

we live in a world that is becoming so intertwined you can no longer say I'm just a designer like for

42:11

me I always tell people I started as a textile like I mean that's what I my training the textile  and fashion design but I've ended up practicing as a product designer more than a fashion designer

42:21

actually yeah and I've actually also become a lecturer of almost I mean I've been a manager

42:26

now you know I've been able to do even project management cause of all the projects you know

42:31

so it becomes very fluid over time we can no longer be rigid and say I'm a graphic designer

42:38

you have to figure out a way to sort of make them flow into each other and be curious be be the

42:47

person who knows what's happened in the Trump at the same time was happening with breakfast at the

42:52

same time what's happening with April journey has retired how does that affect people as a company

42:57

you know you still have to be curious about very fashion currently in this a global recession and  in Kenya we can feel the effects of that recession so you know you have to start asking yourself as

43:06

a designer how do these things affect me yeah look at now the fourth the fourth Industrial Revolution

43:12

which for me must be just because let me tell you the one thing I hated relevant purpose was to use

43:20

a computer so that's changed now I have to change it because out of person if you give me a digital

43:29

artwork to do I will do it very quickly by hand I would be able to just do technical drawings

43:34

and get you a repeat pattern instead of doing it on computer and that could give you in four  different colorways options but Papa by hand but now I'm searching to realize I have to change it

43:45

so I'm asking myself how do I do it maybe I can avoid using computers by becoming a policy maker

43:51

you know maybe become a cabinet secretary or the president yeah or I just actually

43:58

get myself my hands dirty start working with 3d machines printing and you know doing all this

44:03

thing yeah see to the compute and land you know illustrator in 3d marks and all those things but

44:10

it's a chance I have to make and it's not we can no longer ignore the fourth Industrial Revolution

44:16

because if event sorta is looking at oten on autonomous cars yeah self-driving cars who are

44:25

we to not be called you know no yes we have to be more interested in AI and robotics and how do you

44:33

think I like how we left Alexa effect education into color for example exactly yeah the way you

44:41

talked about the 3d printing of Brady Brady I mean that's fantastic and I keep saying we we

44:49

are constantly behind in Kenya maybe in Africa also we are constantly behind because I feel we

44:56

wait for trends to happen then to jump on them I think we need to start to be the church that being

45:03

the transition we've been talking for the last 10 years or so about going to live on mass if

45:10

they're a designer who's working with the teams that are doing this from K so we need to start

45:19

thinking that aspect how do I become value to to Richard Branson's team building a spaceship that

45:27

we take people a passenger ship - how do I start working with Ellen mask to build the rocket like

45:37

those kind of questions even if you're not in the team but just as pet projects maybe mm-hmm yeah I

45:45

think it's really important to be you know we live in a world of consumption you know that that's

45:52

come from consumerism and capitalism and perhaps it's something that we're now looking so half the

46:00

world is aspiring to be what half the world is potentially starting to realize isn't the right

46:07

right way to look at things so now there was a I think Trevor Noah was saying something about you

46:15

know hippies in America now we're going barefoot right but when Africans were doing it was it was

46:22

basic and I think it's really crucial like you said for the entire world to be learning from

46:31

cultures from the rest of the world because you know the way the communities live in Africa for

46:40

example in Kenya is really fascinating you know there are so many medicines and from you know

46:47

Chinese medicine African things and from all over the world we really just need to kind of

46:52

get away from this assumption that everything that's Western and plastic is good so how so

47:02

going back to you know your mentorship and your kind of passion for developing young talent how

47:09

do what's your legacy at better now besides the you know besides all the designers apprentice

47:15

and all the projects you've left behind is the team more like a call now yes I'm so happy by the

47:21

time I was leaving but I we had hired basically convict the boss to hire from Kenya yes and one

47:37

we one apprentice that I was hoping would be developed or my time to become not only just a

47:44

sample make up but in the end to become a designer himself yeah so it was a small team by the time

47:51

it's so interesting managed him I joined but I it was just me and the boss by the time I left  but I think the team was ok me the boss and the sample me the sample me cos were three no to to

48:03

sample makers me as the designer and the most so four people so my time I've left butter the

48:08

team is three sample makers and four designers so that's how many people seven eight on YouTube

48:17

I hope I always used to say when I leave I hope the person who takes over from me will

48:28

be a Kenyan not someone that has to be brought in from Asia or Europe and that was used to tell my

48:36

team walk towards sitting on the same feet that I am now mm-hmm I think that's absolutely crucial I

48:44

mean first like we always openly say you know and I really designed me cuz I should be run  by Kenyans and that's the long-term ambition for East Africans at least you know so what else what

48:59

else what other kind of interesting anecdotes might you have from from your experiences in

49:06

your career I think do not be afraid yes and it's funny because everyone has fear so I think last

49:18

thing of courage is not the absence of fear it's facing the fear that is very true the moment you

Esther on facing your fears, skydiving and taking big opportunities.

49:24

feel too afraid to do certain things I think is them is the time to push mm-hmm look for

49:33

me when I have a few of heights I go skydiving I'm not sure everyone does that that's a brave

49:43

brave thing yeah yeah you know when I was told I'm going to become this development manager I

49:50

was like my gosh I'm so young I had a different plan for the future you know I was so afraid I

49:57

have to say I was not being freaked me out for so long but then I would say what if I had not

50:03

done it completely different life now you know yeah so it's not that there's no fear it's just

50:11

that try plan practice how to overcome your fear you tend you realize your life becomes very much

50:22

fuller yes and also pushing yourself out of your comfort zone yeah okay so that's not so top three

50:29

tips then for creatives coming into the industry wanting to to make it let's say that's number one

50:40

just go for it I think in terms of here yeah go for it if they sense that if you want to work

50:45

for example with Osborn Acharya you know this fantastic work I mean I have you know it's so

50:52

funny when you meet your legend and then they know of you and they buzz Osborne is walking

51:00

with the opera's team is working with their you know marvel you know yeah so if you want to work

51:06

with also put my share for example find a way walk with him when item is vanity are reading

51:12

more you know begging stalking him until he says yes just you know that I think we need to be the

51:19

generation that starts living life by you how we feel how we feel and how we want and just go

51:26

for it be the change makers be the people who we can be written about guys will be like more

51:31

esta could have made changer yeah let's be like watch let's stop being Luke home designers yeah

51:38

when you when you read about the people who inspire you for example yeah they were never

On looking up to people like Osborne Macharia, living how we want & making a change: “let’s stop being luke-warm designers”.

51:44

look who they were they were they were all out you know yes I think I'm about 20 my life where

51:49

I want to be all out not just Timmy DeLuca you know following the flow yeah and part of living

51:57

butter for me was that as you know sure yeah it was I've gotten comfortable how do I get myself

52:04

out of this comfort zone because now everyone is the first youngest whatever you're the oh  my god so you start getting used to this also but the other thing for designers maybe this

52:14

is the second no no this is still under fear do not listen to people when they praise you

52:19

such don't internalize please don't internalize criticism because there's few else fear you'll

52:30

always be like I cannot live better what will people say about me you know what you know but

52:36

opens doors for me if I just am from butter for suddenly yeah but what if I say I'm Esther and

52:43

this is what I do you will not open doors for me you you get yeah so when people praise you

52:48

too much or they criticize you too much it really feeds into your mind and it feeds into your fear

52:53

then you start caring too much about what people think as opposed to what you feel this um there's

53:01

a force that guides us towards a certain path but we only fighting it in the biggest fighter of that

53:07

force is usually fear so that's one fear I add to what you said about Osborn because he you were

53:15

there at my Ruby Design Week when he was talking and he said that you know it's a perfect example

53:20

because he literally said he got into the industry by giving himself side projects mini projects

53:26

right and he just created and again instead of consuming consumption is great because we learn

53:33

and so on but creativity lets you explore your own right and it takes you where you don't even

53:39

realize you would have gone so you know creating his own projects look where look where he's gone

53:45

now and it's not too the next person he wants to work with him can't do this the same thing yeah

53:52

so that's one so the second thing I would say is you have to work hard we had that generation

53:58

that has been stalled over that we've been told over and over that we have to work smart and I

On hard work, respect and building a reputation.

54:03

think that has sort of given us a skewed view of how life works unfortunately in life you have to

54:11

work hard they you'll never escape it if you ask Osbourne Masseria he'll tell you that this is a

54:19

time where he just had to put his head down and work and just get the work done without excuses

54:24

without flaking on people you know creatives we are known for flicking a lot I say I'll do this

54:29

if you tell someone I'm going to give you this project in two weeks give it in one week and

54:36

the promise of a deliverer always and I think that's the other thing for me I had gotten to

54:42

a point where I was fighting two-man politics so you over-promised under-deliver and it's terrible  it's a terrible feeling for yourself yeah yeah so you need to impress yourself before you impress

54:52

other people and one of the ways you do that is under-promise over-deliver every single time if

54:57

you say I'll give you in two days give them in half a day always be that possible because what  happens over time people in their minds know if anything is to be done if it to asakadai why she

55:10

gets it done it's quickly and she would like to you in fact she'll do it quicker you always

55:15

always always I think it will save you a lot of grief and it will earn you a lot of respect yes

55:22

and respect is important trust me sometimes respect will get your father than any other  thing yes so is that number three we've got to and the promise of a deliverer mainly because

55:36

then you are respect and you earn confidence yes which is what you need sure anytime someone is

55:42

referring you to someone else it's purely because of that yeah so what's the third thing I think the

55:48

third thing is be true to yourself we will we want to imitate salads I mean we're living in

55:54

you know in a generation where we are bombarded by people's lifestyles and and I see a lot of people

56:00

struggling with this and I think this is more from a personal perspective than just professional so  both ways you know a you know what for example want to live in Runa because why is that within

56:16

your means it's not even within your plans yeah maybe you would never want you to live in Runa so

56:22

why are you forcing yourself to do this you know just to show people that you're not I don't know

56:27

there's not keeping up with the Jonases that is happening right now that is a betta its side and

56:33

you've heard of people living in depression and you know and I think mostly it's because of this  you feel you do not measure don't they say they the thief of joy is comparison so don't compare

56:44

yourself to other people if s piccata is the senior managing but I don't know such wanting

56:50

to be the senior managing butter I mean what is your strength what she's true to yourself go and

56:57

do that maybe your strength is to travel to India and teach kids in India how to design them you

57:04

know the design process do you do that and you'll find since that is your purpose you'll grow more

57:09

when you go to someone else's purpose you become miserable then you start thinking of yourself as

57:17

a business yeah because then you also treat I mean you see how businesses treat themselves

57:22

very seriously yeah if it's I've never gone to a business where people just walk in any time of

57:29

the day at you okay I'm checking into our coach - oh they have a set time for okay so if work

57:36

starts itself like at Matta actors actually 7 25 25 that's like school registration to be in the

57:47

office late yeah so if a company that has been running for hundreds of years because butter

57:53

celebrator I think was it hundred and thirty-four yeah if a company that's been running for that  long still has those you know processes they're standard procedures who are you as an individual

58:05

know to have standard operating procedures you know yeah so start treating yourself as  a business then you start handling yourself as a business making money for example I think I only

58:16

say this I love money I will do things for free as volunteer and all these things but at the end

58:24

of the day I love money and that's I always say is one of my Indians and one of the reasons why

58:31

I love money is because if I have a lot of it I can make even more change honestly yes because I

58:38

have such big dreams for myself it has such like for example I would like to have a private matter

58:43

designers apprentice that I can run for years and years and years you know yeah every I just get a

58:50

cohort of student designers and they are able to come and let's say to me land or travel to South  Africa travel to Rwanda and you know learn about design and all and honestly the things that I

59:01

would love to do with my time in my life you know my legacies basically you know yeah so money is a

59:08

good thing let's know unlight you that money's not everything but it should not rule your life

59:14

so what will happen sometimes you'll be forced to make decisions where you will lose money but

Advice she received on experience & money from fashion mentor Ann McCreath years ago.

59:19

the bigger picture you will gain more and mcribs give me very good advice long time ago maybe she

59:25

doesn't really remember she told me Esther if you can learn if you can get a company to pay

59:32

you no matter how little virtual learning please use that opportunity and for me about preachers

59:38

battle so basically what has been my MBA project yes I've basically gotten an MBA by being one by

59:45

working in butter yeah fantastic advice and they only see if you offered money or experience take

59:52

the experience know exactly what time to be hungry son agree yeah and once you get money plan your

1:00:03

life don't be I think we were saying before is such a recording you're buying Black Label it's

1:00:09

everything every weekend Oh every night you know yeah enjoy a metric on it now enjoyment I think

1:00:16

you have to be level-headed in such a way that like for me I I'm not actively working right now

1:00:24

but I'm able to pay my bills I'm able to drive my car I'm able to go have fun yeah why because

1:00:31

I had a plan yeah if you're able to get financial advisors get financial advisors sit down talk to

1:00:37

them they will method are very good because they they give you they get you to list down the things

1:00:42

about your life that you want so it's very clear yes is it you want to a housing runed or is it a

1:00:47

house in Millian apartment in Dubai in the budge what do you want and then how do I achieve that

1:00:56

and how in what period of time do you want you know so usually when you have a stranger looking

1:01:03

into your life they have a clear view because they are unbiased they don't have any barriers to us so  they give you a very clear vision if you're able to also get a life coach because I got one night

1:01:13

how to load the good thing with a life coach you can cry out to them a bit like you know financial

1:01:21

advisors they'd be like why are you crying life coach will be like for me the one I go to event

1:01:28

talking about spirituality you know so she'll be like is this aligned to your spirituality yeah so I know we are designers and I know we are creatives and most of the time we are not

1:01:41

expected event to be successful why why can't we be the successful ones why country have kids grow

1:01:47

up and say I wanted to be i d-- right now because of the socrata because of Adriane because of you  know yeah why is it that i want to be a doctor I want to be an engineer sure or now a politician

1:01:56

could be still so much yeah you know so we need to get to a point where we are guiding lights we are

Summary of her advice.

1:02:03

actually changing lights you know we are we are the EFI you need to success yeah I like that so

1:02:12

once again the three points yeah do not get rid of fear yes so go three of your courses fear is

1:02:20

constant just go through it learn how to power through your fear yes - oh it's - now I think

1:02:33

we over promise yes and yeah from the promise of a believer so that you can gain respect mm-hmm

1:02:40

yeah you can be what is it calls reliable person exactly yes so you can respect and you're very

1:02:50

reliable password that's two and then three treat yourself as a business yes so handle your finances

1:02:56

properly don't try to be like everyone else because a business like matter matter sells shoes

1:03:01

have you ever seen better train yourself a time like Safari comes when they become their business

1:03:08

so focus on your business stop leave other people's business out of it yeah then handle your

1:03:15

money in such a way that it's run like a business yeah if you need to invest invest yeah if you need

1:03:21

to leave opportunities so that you can create time for better opportunities in which I've been  do that or you know but don't find excuses just because you don't have the materials the truth is

1:03:33

absolutely I mean you said that you went into you know you get on offer to get paid for something

1:03:39

right and you went to bat oh but you spent two years doing the Terranova project which gave you

1:03:45

experience for free which allowed you to get there right without the free experience from Terranova

1:03:51

you wouldn't have so our three of here do not let it hold you back to and the promise of a

1:04:01

deliverer every time so that you can be respected and consistent in your work and then three treat

1:04:08

yourself like a business handle your money right handle your spirituality right let's stop trying

1:04:14

to live like everyone else yeah and mind your business basically so now that you're taking

1:04:21

and taking a break have you got any plans for the coming for the coming months in wresting no let me

1:04:31

tell you a story about how I got my first job this is the thing when we do our final year project in

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design its intensive because you now go walk with us active fans and all this it usually gets to a

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point where for us the many in the class we would always have stylish Li China turbans on our heads

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and scarves and all and someone like oh you're such a designer mm-hmm it's because my hair looks

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like a mess I don't even have time to comb my hair or go to the solo that is how crazy you should get

1:05:01

yeah so by the time would finish our projection do the peanut for the exhibition and exam we would

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all tell ourselves we are going to sleep for a full 1 month doing nothing that's what you tell

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yourself and I remember meant for me I got our room in compass I it was a bit illegal I could

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mean someone to allow me to stay in their room so I paid I think for three months yes I could

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miss them I tell them for three months so they let me stay in their room then I went I bought  snacks movies serious all those things I was like oh I'm going to sleep for one month guess what

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happened to me I went to sleep I was awaking like in the middle of the night I woke up no I'm like I

1:05:42

can't even sleep anymore just happening to me and then I was like oh gosh I tried I tried watching  I could not watch a series or a movie I tried eating the snacks I couldn't I couldn't sleep

1:05:52

this is a sleeping for fallers I felt so tired so I such I was like no what can I just like

1:05:58

let me make a list of the jobs people not like to open so I remember my listeners and my Creed for  those Monica Connery knows you know Syrah oh you know the people sounds like okay so the next day

1:06:08

I was like okay I'm going to go to these places and ask them for a job yeah so I didn't I didn't

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sleep for even a day not even one a month hidden sister I couldn't not sit still so this we live

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sabbatical not a second I told myself that I'm going to sleep I promise oh my gosh I asked okay

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I have to admit the first two months of access because for sure I didn't sleep quite a bit and  then I have a very good friend of my shoes called okay we call a tight tight invited me to stay with

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her and her family for she have this small baby and just remember so it was really therapeutic  for me you know because I have and we are really good friends I mean it's fun when I'm with her

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yeah so it was a lot of talking you know she's on maternity leave it was fun and then the baby is I

1:06:53

keep saying the Liana was my therapy like I just hold her then we clipped like she's born in April

1:07:00

we are a so it's kind of like weekly yes I would hold her and should keep quiet and everyone else  would hold her hand she's crying which was the first two months of fantastic because of that

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that's social connection you know I think I had sort of lost it because I was always too busy so

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this brought back that whole sense of community for me yeah sorry I'll sleep a lot to be honest

1:07:21

I cannot sleep anymore sorry I am a workaholic I've agreed and I've come to accept myself as

1:07:28

I am salty maybe I'm definitely interested in doing my PhD yeah in fact so that's I'm looking at

1:07:37

applications and all those kind of things and tell us about your interest areas I'm definitely the

1:07:45

fourth Industrial Revolution yeah I'm really like how do i as a designer fit into this whole picture

1:07:51

yeah so 3d printing although it's already here with us how do we make it mainstream as opposed

1:07:58

to currently the wait a bit more experimental you know and how do we apply it to Kenya Africa yeah

1:08:07

interested in how every time someone says someone is going to Mars unlike what I read somewhere that

1:08:13

Puma Puma was designing for people who will be living in Mars like why didn't I think of that

1:08:22

crossover exactly I was like why for sure do you need certain kinds of clothes different from what

1:08:29

is on earth if you're going to live on earth you know yeah so um I'm at that point where I

1:08:34

want to figure out my place in this whole fourth Industrial Revolution mm-hmm and not for now for

1:08:42

the future you know yes like in the next five or ten years or even 20 years like how will a pocket

1:08:50

a half each end there so that would probably be my PhD research sure this is and the other thing

1:08:56

well as a battery used to get a lot of requests for customers shoes for guys with the deformities

1:09:03

or a bulk differently and we all used to struggle the truth you know to supply Yeah right you know

1:09:13

because the demand was higher than and also in terms of the equipment we never quiet that was not

1:09:18

our area of course attrition soon equipment was about there you know and I've really been thinking

1:09:24

how then do I feel that Cup because I have the expertise I have the experience I just need to do

1:09:30

it yeah so it's like a question I've been saying I've been telling myself this is something I need

1:09:36

to do mm-hmm I just it it's it's just streamlining things into how can I see maybe three or four

1:09:52

bullet points mm-hmm things I want to do because I mean it's as a person you can't say you're doing

1:09:59

just one thing and then you're like I cannot do the rest that's been crazy yeah yeah so you can

1:10:07

do at least maybe three four things do one thing well instead of doing ten things those are the

1:10:16

areas of concentration of course teaching I love teaching I smell good I miss teaching I think oh

1:10:21

if anything I've always said I won't treat air when I'm 40 mm-hmm from active employment it's

1:10:28

about I'm able to control the things I walk on but I think I'll treat her I only said yeah I'll just

1:10:34

drop dead in class when I for teaching I honestly I love it I'll just be like I'm 8 years old with

1:10:39

my I'm sure your lecturers will be happy today I think they've definitely had an impact on and they

1:10:52

never thought I would love to do that much I think it was those things out like oh I don't think I'll  do it was really fantastic when I did it because I was teaching at the Technical University of

1:11:01

Kenya yeah a lecture you design courses yeah so it I really really enjoyed it and it was to see

1:11:06

that I'm making a change I think that was maybe the thing for me like you actually see change  you see a student joining that class and a lot of students the good thing is over time they became

1:11:17

more interested in having like for me in the beginning I wanted to be an architect yeah so it's

1:11:23

true time for me to go a to move to LA design it's good to see that a lot of people now watch to be a

1:11:29

designer so they've not been forced into design yes but then there's a a lack of clarity about

1:11:36

what design is especially confusing it's still not sure even I'm sure if you ask a random stranger

1:11:43

if you ask a random stranger in the street what if design they'll probably not be able to tell

1:11:51

you what design fashion furniture may be a lot of people when you ask them or designers they think

1:11:57

oh oh so it's only fun when I go for meetings with the cabinet secretaries and all this roundtable

1:12:04

meetings and then they they like you and I come at design and the logo can you draw me what we do so

1:12:12

for me to see students in the beginning not even on a sunny would design it and by the end of the

1:12:18

semester this is three months they they are solely on what design is and they're so clear on who and

1:12:26

they're so clear on their future path and that passion they have so it's all about just design

1:12:33

you know it's now a passion yeah for me that was fantastic amazing amazing well thank you

1:12:40

very much absolute pleasure is there anything else that you would like to tell or ask our community

1:12:48

maybe you have a question for everyone I think I would just say what is your passion I always

1:12:56

ask yourself that what's your passion like one a are you doing what you're doing yeah I think  that question there it's a very cliche question but they always say what would you do if you had

1:13:06

suddenly a lot of money mm-hmm would you still continue doing what you're doing if you didn't  have to work exactly yes you need to have to work if you or your rent was paid you have everything

1:13:17

yeah so if then you if you had money you would stop doing what you're doing why are you doing

1:13:24

it then and this is not just for designers it's for everyone we in Kenya we are living a life

1:13:30

where people are doing things because they have to as opposed to they want to mm-hmm let's do things

1:13:36

because we want to absolutely so while you are on sabbatical so we don't encourage too many people

1:13:44

to cram your inbox but if people do want to find you see what you're up to where can they find you

1:13:49

oh I've been trying to get off social media good good that's not a bad thing yeah but well I mean

1:13:57

just such a staccato mm-hmm because the good thing is currently most of my social media yeah yes send

1:14:04

me an inbox in which ever you find whether it's Twitter whether it's LinkedIn although I'm not

1:14:09

so much anything where else yes yeah don't tweet oh yeah perfect yeah thank you thank you so much

1:14:22

Adrian be sure to visit my Ruby design week calm and subscribe to our channel for more african

1:14:27

design and leave a review or comment to let us know what you thought thank you they say [Music]

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you [Music] [Music]