Ep.18 Journey into Textiles | Fungi Dube

Welcome to Afrika Design. Yes. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. So carrying on our creative tour of Africa

[00:00:07] Hosts (A/N): On this episode, we are joined by Fungi Dube an incredible designer and researcher.

With a background in science who shares her project Threads she also, she has more about African scripts and their cultural, social, economic, and political significance.

We're trying out a slightly new format for the show this time, a more focused version, let us know what you think about it. we hope you enjoy the show. I'm AdrianJankowiak, Naitiemu and this is Afrika design.

[00:00:37] Intro & Plesantries

[00:00:37] Hosts (A/N): How do we pronounce your name? Because we've seen that in pronounced in many different ways.

For me, I said Fungi Dube that a more Swahili, I think I just took it? the way it looks.

[00:00:48] Fungi: Yeah. That's exactly what it is.

[00:00:50] Hosts (A/N): Does it have a meaning?

[00:00:51] Fungi: Yeah, so my full name is actually Fungai. So that means to think in Shona, which is one of my native tongues, my surname Dube, is Ndebele so that's a direct translation, which means a zebra. .

I am named after my grandmother, who was the original Fungai Dube, an absolutely amazing, super strong, gracious woman who was really big on unifying, you know, people and family. So I come from a very close knit family. So that is who I embody.

[00:01:25] Hosts (A/N): if names are supposed to foreshadow things, you said it's Zebra, right? So perhaps around the, work you do with patterns and your understanding of nature.

[00:01:35] Fungi: Yeah. Maybe cause I hadn't actually thought about it that way. So I think that's a super cool interpretation. I'm sticking cut that. I'm going to run with that because I think that's super cool.

[00:01:43] First Question : Science + Design

So Fungi comes from a background of anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry. She told us how she got from this into design and what it adds to her work.

[00:01:52] Fungi: Yeah. So it's a pretty interesting pivot, right? Cause I think everyone's always like super shocked when they find out that I was actually like a science major and they're like, well, you're designing now. Like how does that even work? So I mean, I always had like creative inclinations from when I was young.

So I was that child was like DIY things. So I definitely feel that me being a designer right now is sort of like a full circle moment where everything has been leading up to this exact moment. And what I've noticed is that what sort of maybe differentiates my process is that I'm able to implement some of like the scientific methodologies in my work.

So everything is heavily influenced by research because I want to be able to elevate the African narrative, but I don't want to misconstrue it. I believe it has to be portrayed in its fullest, grace, like with so much reverence, but it has to be like spot on and so accurate because you don't want to have, you know, like different interpretations of things that you think are, but actually aren't.

My scientific background comes into play because there's like, you know, some analysis, some evaluation. Loads of research. So I open up books, I search articles, I'm reading like 40 page papers that I've been written because I just want to be able to find out if you know, what is on the internet is accurate and that sort of thing, because I can only do so much being here in Harare, in Zimbabwe.

I would love to absolutely meet all of these people and like, you know, go to all these different parts in Africa and hear first hand from elders in the communities, but it's physically impossible. So what I have is the internet, but I need to make sure that I can sort of,

[00:03:34] Hosts (A/N): Okay.

[00:03:35] Fungi: you know, like collate all the resources I can to make sure that even as I then translate that into design, it's something that is sound is something that has been tested.

It's something that. Someone notable or someone who's taken time out to do the research, but has also concluded on so that at least the narrative is maintained and it's strong and it's sound

[00:04:01] Question 2 : History of fabrics and their communities in Afrika

[00:04:01] Hosts (A/N): What does the history of fabrics tell us about those fabrics, about the people who develop them and the and the cultures they came from.

[00:04:08] Fungi: I own like so much ankara and all of that in various forms. And I think that's super cool, but as I was like digging into it you actually realize that, you know elements or that represented much bigger stories. So when it came to even expressing, you know, issues, want political and social reform around advancements and, and agriculture around, you know, just like the basics of life.

So life issues like motherhood, love, spite , just all of those emotional roller coasters that we go through as people nowadays, as a person who maybe having a platform whereby we can now like tweet about it, or you can write a think piece about it.

I realized that textiles were a bigger way of communicating some of these issues. So for instance, even if we look into Kenyan culture and we look at kente, which is probably the most celebrated African textile that is known world over. History, when we looked at that, we see that it was the cloth of Royals. And there's a whole like story around that, that I read up to say that, you know, there were these two young men who on the forest and then they encountered a spider who was weaving his web and they were so fascinated about it.

And then he taught them how to do this. And then they took him back to the Asantihini at the time. And he was super fascinated by the entire process. And then turned it into a Royal clot, but also what you then discover. Right? Cause we're talking about tradition and culture and the richness of the stories behind this is that no two kente were the same and all the weave patterns had different positions and all the positions had different meanings.

So you could have a particular Kente clot that was worn for a specific event or one that was representative of war times or one that was representative of some break and social reform or something like that. So. It ceases to just be something that's aesthetic and then becomes more like deeper messaging and like, you know, still with that beauty, because we can't take away from the stated value of these things, but the traditional and cultural norms and the stories that are embedded in that runs so much deeper, and this is way back into 18 century.

, even when you look at Kuba cloths from the DRC. That dates way back as well into like the 18th century and apparently, according to history and papers, right? Like all of these clots inspired some really world renowned artists who hung these cloths in their studios.

So like Picasso and they just stared at the geometry of the fabrics. Right. Waiting for inspiration for their outwork. And I'm mind blown, like, are you telling me that this always existed in Africa? And we're not like on this, like, that's so cool.

There's so much history that's embedded into them. There's so much culture that's embedded into them and there's so much beauty that is embedded into them.

[00:07:07] Question 3 : Changes in materials & processes

[00:07:07] Hosts (A/N): She then told us what's changed with the materials and processes used over time.

[00:07:12] Fungi: There was sort of like a moment where people realized that, Hey, we can actually start making money from this. So there's mass production, which means that it's basically just printing, you know, various designs, I guess we can call them nowadays as opposed to actual patterns that may have a meaning it's more aesthetic, more than anything.

But when we look at it from then, right. That from when this initially started. And from when Africans in Africa started exploring these textiles, there was like, we've been talking about, there was a lot of messaging, but also even how they were made was different. So when we look at kuba clothes now, which is generally printed, or maybe hand-sewn, they were using these like raffia fibers, right.

That they would interlock to create those geometric patterns. So you had the women within those communities being the ones who were actually interpreting and the ones who were actually denoting and adding meaning to these symbols, because that's. The role of the women, and most of them were actually weaved by the women, and then they would pass on these, practices and the actual custom of making them to their daughters who were then expected to pass that onto their daughters. And it kept going like that. I like to call it more of like a sacred sort of spiritual process where just, wasn't like, oh, like, let's just see what we can come up with.

Oh, that flowers pretty let's print it on 10,000 pieces of Dutch wax fabric and just sell it out there to the world. It was very intentional. It was not random at all. Even when you look at Kente, those were individual threads woven on a loom, but with all the different colors representing different states.

So, the yellows or the golds, we could say representing royalty and luxury, and then you had the greens and the blues, which represented fertility and, you know, innovation and that sort of thing. So everything was so well thought out. Right? And it was so precise and the way of making them was very, very, very specific which is very different to what it is now, because now it's just mass commercialization.

How much can we get up there in bulk because people want this and we need to sell it.

**[00:09:24] Question 4 : Commercialization **

[00:09:24] Hosts (A/N): African fabrics and patterns have often been commercialized

Fungi gave us the example of Bogolan clothes being used by interior designers across the world on pillows and covers.

[00:09:34] Fungi: And it's not even in an African context alone, because even this happens in Asia, it happens in other parts of the world where you may get a certain conglomerate or people with the financial muscle or these big brands who will come and take these ideas from these different communities.

And make a major killing off of it and profit off of it. So my stance is to say there's nothing wrong with commercializing them, I think it shows impact, right.

That on a global scale, people have actually seen that this thing . These textiles have so much influence and they shape narratives. But at the same time, if we decide that we're going to be making money off of this, let the actual holders of the narrative benefit the most because they're the ones who have the storage of their stories at heart and they're the ones who've lived them and they are the ones that came up with them.

[00:10:27] Question 5 : Appropriation of culture?

[00:10:27] Hosts (A/N): We touched more on appropriation of culture.As an artist. I'm highly inspired by the many different cultures communities in Africa. And how then can I best interpret this in my work without infringing other people's methods and ideas and cultures?

[00:10:42] Fungi: Yeah. That is such a valid question. Right? Because then people will be like, Hey, as Africans, if we're having this conversation together, for instance, if I am to borrow from New York culture, am I appropriating or am I appreciating you? So there's a super fine line. So I think, my position has always been to say that I generally believe in an Africa that is borderless. I believe that we're one people Because how is it that I can talk about my experience here in Zimbabwe and have the same conversation with my friend in Nairobi or in Nigeria or in Ghana?

I'm like, oh, that's exactly how I grew up. My mom also used to do that and my mom said that. So it's all of these common experiences that we have. So. When it then comes to drawing inspiration from my neighbors or from my friends. I'd like to say, I think it's one making sure that obviously, you're not misconstruing the narrative.

So if you do have someone that you can reach out to who is there to say, Hey, I just wanted to fact check with you, I have this project that I'm working on and I saw these symbols and that sort of thing. Do you know about it? What can you tell me, does this, I'm trying to translate it so that you know, it still makes sense in your context as well, but it allows me to be able to celebrate your culture.

And one of my favorite proverbs actually says that if you want to go fast go alone.

But if you want to go far go together. I believe that's exactly how it should be.

**[00:12:05] Question 6 : Project 'THREADS' **

[00:12:05] Hosts (A/N): Fungi shared more about threads, a series. She started as a means of understanding the graphic systems that are embedded in African textiles.

[00:12:14] Fungi: So one of my dear friends sent me the fabric map of Africa. It was done by Mia Kora. And I was like, whoa, this is so fascinating. Because I think we've always known that textiles exist, but because I've also generally had a fascination with the geometry and African patterns or even on housing rates.

So in homesteads and that sort of thing, I know it's a thing in Ghana. It's a thing here in Zimbabwe. It's a thing in South Africa where you will see all the beautiful patterns on mud huts, that sort of thing. I started my Google search and then I started off by searching mud cloth. We see a lot of pictographic symbols here where, it's actually a form of writing with these symbols depict objects.

Say Adinkra is well known, then they also put it on fabric. But then that's more ideographic symbols where an entire symbol represents a concept, like a whole idea in one. And I just got super, super intrigued and I was like, okay, what about the colors?

What happens with that? Do they mean something , is it just random? Like what's going on with that? So I started digging deeper and deeper. What actually led for threads to grow. In my mind. And hopefully in the minds of people who have encountered it is that I then got the opportunity where a typographics reached out to me.

They were like, oh, we'd like for you to be a speaker this year. And I was racking my brain because I was like, I'm not a type designer, what am I supposed to talk about? Right. And then started consulting with one of my other dear friends Simon Charwey. And I was like, Simon, I'm completely lost here because I really want to do this.

And I think it's amazing. But everyone who goes to typographics is talking about type design and I'm just here, like, have you designed nothing? So that's when he started just like picking my brain and we eventually landed on this because I was saying in my mind was still a very loose concept, but that actually solidified it to say, wait, African script,are actually different, right.

Because we can get, and the letter forms so we going to get our A's or B's or C's, and that sort of thing.

[00:14:29] Hosts (A/N): Okay.

[00:14:29] Fungi: but what's the equivalent of that in Africa. So all of these, the symbols that we see, right. What are these rock paintings?

From like hunter era and that sort of thing, they were means of communicating something when they saw these things within their communities, they actually knew what it meant because that was their form of encoding and transferring and storing information. That's what really pushed me to keep pursuing threads because this exploration started very loosely in March and then it ended towards the end of June slash into July

And yeah, I just realized that the African scripts are super versatile and they take different forms, but they are still so rich in meaning. That's how threads was born. That's how it evolved. It hasn't ended yet because I'm still very curious and I feel like there's more and more to explore.

[00:15:20] Question 7: Types of Afrikan scripts

[00:15:20] Hosts (A/N): Fungi mentioned that African scripts are not ordinary. They're phonetics, syllabic, ideographic and pictographic characters and symbols.

And we wanted to learn some examples.

[00:15:30] Fungi: The pictographic ones, for sure. when you look at mud clot, right. So bogolan cloth from Mali, you see that you actually have abstract symbols that represent an entire object so they will have a little like upwards arrows that are representative of a farmer's sickle.

You'll also get wave patterns that represent rivers and you'll also get other upward arrow, symbols that represent mountains or valleys. That's what I actually like really blows my mind because then you start to see that everything was super well thought out and it may look very, very raw, but that was how they understood these things and how they saw them.

the best example of ideographic will be Adinkra you get several, Adinkra symbols, you get all of these that represent female beauty, you get other symbols that represent the twist and turns of life.

But it's all depicted within one, you know, like simple, but it's an entire concept. It's a whole sentence from start to finish with the full story. Your phonetic scripts, I guess, would be then sort of with the different languages that you hear. Like I said, I speak Shona.

I also speak Ndebele, but our vault system would be . So a E I O U, and that's exactly how we then pronounce and sound ours. So when you see Fungi or Fungai. It's exactly how you read it, how you see it as how you say it. These characters are then coming together to form the sound of my language and the sound of the languages that you speak.

Syllabic would just be, you know, these characters that can come together to form the syllables, that form the words, then that form the sentences.

When we look at textiles, we're mostly looking at the ideographic and most, probably the pictographic forms of scripts as opposed to the phonetic ones.

Cause we're not really sounding out languages or anything like that. But it's more symbolic than anything.

[00:17:32] Question 8 : Onomatopoeia in Afrikan languages

[00:17:32] Hosts (A/N): Have you got any examples? Just a side note, maybe in your language of onomatopeia. Words that sound like the thing that they're doing

[00:17:40] Fungi: Yeah. Oh gosh, I'm trying to think. Hmm.

[00:17:44] Hosts (A/N): so another one in Swahili is kuku, which is chicken.

[00:17:49] Fungi: Okay. Okay. So that's actually interesting, right? Because then you also see like the migration of Bantu languages and everything like that because in Shona a chicken is huku yeah. We do have this thing called where you actually associate a sound to an action.

So if someone were to fall down, like you hear that sort of, 'thud' sound, but in Shona you would say D because that represents that, 'thud' right. Or if someone is quiet or someone is silent, it's like Z like quiet

[00:18:25] Hosts (A/N): in Swahili we have a whole category of sounds. for example, if someone is laughing, you say, cheka kwa kwa kwa and then there's like, nyamaza ndiii like each and everything,

[00:18:39] Fungi: Yeah.

[00:18:40] Hosts (A/N): silence each and every action has a sound to it.

[00:18:45] Fungi: we also study the examples that I was giving you we also studying them in school. Even as you write compositions you would then be incorporating those words to describe the sounds like this person fell. So it would be , you know, like they fell and you heard that sound.

[00:19:07] Question 9 : Afrika after colonialism

[00:19:07] Hosts (A/N): Let's hope that are learning African patterns in schools all over the world that's it.

[00:19:16] Fungi: I think there's definitely need for the curriculum to change. I was having this conversation I think it's actually on the day of the typographics conference, because I got a few DMS and, you know, just general comments saying, wait, how come we didn't learn about these things in school?

Because some of my colleagues were presenting on different things and one of them Tapiwanashe Sebastian Garikay i is an amazing type designer. He's trying to revive African languages to designing fonts for them. But it's different in his context because as opposed to the Latin alphabet, where you have all of these software that have been designed for it, he has to go around the corners to try fit and manipulate these African fonts within those systems because African languages sound very different.

The general commentary was to say, why are we not being taught this in school? And then I started thinking about that as well. And I was like a lot of what we get taught, unfortunately, is due to the fact that as Africans, we were colonized and that's a big deal.

In our history books, I know way more about the cold war and world war one than you know, all of those things that I do about my actual history, if you had to ask me, I'll probably like, yeah, it's like a sprinkle. I know that this happened at this time and that happened in that time. But now, because there's this massive shift and there's a need to be able to de-colonize these systems inclusive of our design systems We then realize that there's need to shift the curriculum because we need to be learning about that basics. We need to learn about who you are. We need to learn about our identity. We need to know where we came from. We need to know what we're good at. We need to know what our things mean. How to make a good living from our narratives and from owning that.

It's an entire process. It's not an overnight thing, but I think it starts with just one person changing their perspective and not even say it in a disrespectful way or anything. But I think just being able to confidently and proudly own who you are as an African and then taking that out to the world, because as much as we consume media and information and culture from the west, we should also be able to do that for ourselves, with what we actually have here in the motherland.

[00:21:33] Hosts (A/N): That's very true. I remember watching this Ted talk by Chimamanda Ngozi and she touched on how, she was growing up, the books that she read were all foreign.

[00:21:45] Fungi: Okay.

[00:21:46] Hosts (A/N): and a creative, she was made to believe that have to go foreign for you to be able to express yourself, right.

Everything that's within the books are foreign, that's basically much of how we've grown up with. You have story books in the library that are. Not relatable. And so you grew up thinking that for you to actually get into this other world, you must other foreign things which now growing up,

You start seeing all these amazing things from Africa, and you're like, what, did I miss all of this? feel it's

[00:22:15] Fungi: Yeah.

[00:22:16] Hosts (A/N): important what you're doing, and it's very important for us to understand our roots.

[00:22:20] Fungi: Yeah, definitely. It's like almost like an eye opener. Right. And somehow it hits you late in life, which is actually so crazy because when I look at my childhood and everything like that, it was actually quite bad to the point that when I went to school, so I went to a government school for for grade school.

So grade one to seven, and then for high school, I went to a private institution and it was interesting in the sense that we would get in trouble at break time for speaking to your friend in your native language. So you would have to go and see, the head mistress is because I was speaking in Shona to my friend during break time

We've actually grown up in a space where a lot of who we are. And a lot of the culture that we embody has been suppressed at all angles. And you almost feel ashamed to step into it or feel ashamed to express yourself in your native tongue, because then what are people going to say?

We actually had the slang term growing up called guash . So saying like, oh, you're so guash if you don't know how to speak English, like you're not cool. Right? Well, I'm like, no, That shouldn't be a thing because I should still be cool. And speaking in Shona,I should still be cool.

And speaking in Swahili , I should still be cool and speaking in Ndebele and that should be okay. I can still be cool speaking in English, but allow me to express what I am and to be who I am. And don't suppress that. And don't demonize me for stepping into that because that is who I am.

[00:23:51] Hosts (A/N): And as a by the way there's a few pieces of perhap s Africa being mentioned in the curriculum that I grew up on, one of those was Egypt that's probably one of the most interesting things to my students. People seem to find Egyptian in history, very fascinating. And that would probably extend to all this other stuff that you're teaching and patterns and symbols, et cetera. it's actually also interesting and can give people an insight into their own cultures as well.

[00:24:25] Fungi: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:24:27] Question 10 : History of Afrikan fabrics

[00:24:27] Hosts (A/N): This is really interesting because you've touched on what we wanted to ask as well, which is timeline of some of the prints and the symbols. And so on, mentioned that some, you know, a lot of this culture goes back to way before colonization and some of it might even come after colonization. what have you learned about the timeline of these prints maybe even where did they originally come from? How were they originally made?

[00:24:55] Fungi: Where they actually originated from, I think it was also a matter of the environment. Most specifically was Kuba cloths, which is probably the oldest recorded. They used to make that out of raffia fibers, which is like a raw natural fiber that they turned into a thread and then they were interlocking that, so it's actually referred to as like the eco-friendly fabric of Africa .

Because it was all natural. I think it was a matter of seeing what was within their environment and what they could use to actually make these textiles. And then the actual work that went into it so with the geometric patterns or whatever form the patterns took was an interpretation of their culture and their stories.

So like I'm saying things that they saw. And directly translated onto the fabric. whether it was a cow . How would we represent a cow and how can you put that on fabric? Whether it was a tree, what does a tree look like with all these reforms, agriculture, a sickle? So they'll be some form of farming, right?

So you've got that cylindrical shape or whatever it is. But also to answer your other question where you said there's a pre colonization , there's post colonization, there are other things that are coming up now what's happening with that?

I think just like myself and probably like yourself as an artist, right? This is not then just drawing into those cultures and seeing how we can bring that into 2021. It's seeing how we can collaborate with other people to sort of see how we can come up with innovative and fresh ways of depicting these ideas that have always existed because what was there in 18?

Something, something may not be as relevant in 2021 . In terms of how people actually perceive the information, but the actual messaging behind it remains. So I think that's probably the shift now to say you then see a lot of artists, a lot of illustrators, you see a lot of type designers, you see a lot of textile designers who are sort of going back.

So that's Sankofa, right. Which is also another Adinkra symbol, where you go back into the past, you get the knowledge of the past and you bring it into the present, which is an entire concept in itself.

[00:27:17] Question 11 : Types of fabrics used in the past

[00:27:17] Hosts (A/N): We also got to explore some of the different fabrics that were used in the past.

[00:27:21] Fungi: Raffia it's mud cloth and it's actually she made out of a fermented mud. That's why it's called mud cloth. As to the technique behind that, I think that there would actually be need for more research as to how they did it, because I think that's absolutely fascinating.

And then you then get your Kuba cloths, which was made out of raffia fibers. Your Kente was made out of single threads. So those were woven on a loom. I think with time, like I was saying, it's just turned into more handprints, but Adinkra is hand printed using Calabash stamps onto fabric.

So they would actually make the stamps or with the different symbol on the top there. And then they're dipping that into an ink and stamping it onto fabric. In terms of materials, I think That is, as far as I can confidently answer you because that's the research that I've done that's why I also mentioned threads may maybe done on behance but it's not done in actual life because there's just so much more to unpack.

And I'm extremely curious about this and we'll keep digging up until I learn everything.

[00:28:24] Hosts (A/N): And the ink,

[00:28:25] Fungi: Not entirely sure. Because that's also part of research, but I would like to believe that it was probably, you know, like I almost picture henna some, for some odd reason where it may be, had been like a natural dye from a tree or something like that.

[00:28:42] Hosts (A/N): There's probably a lot of undiscovered knowledge there. Research that should be done by scientists looking into the breakdown of.

some of these pigments

So are the other stories that you to unpack on the show for our listeners or that you're looking forward to unpacking?

[00:29:01] Fungi: Definitely, definitely. But I'm not going to tell you because I think that you need to be surprised when you find out what they are. Well, yeah. My mind is always in this, I think as we're drawing towards typographics, I was already thinking of what the next exploration is going to be. So I have folders with papers in there and I'm reading and when it comes out, you'll know about it.

And that's all I'm going to say..

[00:29:27] Question 12 : 'Typographics' event + other Afrikan designers involved

[00:29:27] Hosts (A/N): You took part in typographics this year, you took part with other designers that you've kind of mentioned a few of them.

are the other designers?

[00:29:36] Fungi: Oh, awesome. So there's Tapiwanashe Sebastian Garikayi so @sebgarrydesign on Instagram S E B G A double R Y design on Instagram. Amazing, amazing, amazing type designer who is absolutely shifting he's going out and he's reviving African languages through type.

So we speak of Mangwengo script and, and all of that. And it's, it's mind blowing. Like I think that if you can actually have him on on the session, you should definitely pick into his brain and hear the work that he's been doing cause it's phenomenal. The other designer that we had on as well is Taurai Valerie Mtake.

She's a TavaTake designs, T a V a T a K E designs on Instagram. And she was talking about Madimi, which is a Bantu inspired typeface and writing system that she evolved. And that's also a super, super fascinating work. Yeah, so it was, it was the three of us or being moderated by Simon Charwey.

So African design matters on Instagram. Or Simon Charwey he was our moderator and then the three of us were the ones who were presenting. But yeah, you should, you should tap into the work like shameless plug. I'm just gonna keep raving about them because I think that they're doing amazing work.

[00:30:55] Wrap Up

[00:30:55] Hosts (A/N): Thank you so much. So please tell us and the listeners, where can everyone find you? Where should they keep updated on your exciting project?

[00:31:06] Fungi: So you can find me on Instagram Fungi Dube graphics. F U NGI D U B E, you can also find me on Twitter at Fungi underscore Dube. You can find me on LinkedIn, if you want to keep it professional Fungi Dube, and you can find me on Behance as well. My DMs across all my social media platforms are always open because I'm always open to having different kinds of conversations around design and Africa, and my dislike for cats.

If you are one of those people as well, then we can always have a chat about that too. But yeah also, so things happen to my DM, so you're always welcome to reach out to me and we can, we can have a chat for sure.

[00:31:49] Hosts (A/N): Thank you so much. Thank you Thank you. It's been amazing. Yes. If, if anyone has a way to contribute to the research and support with uncovering more cultures, then, then get in touch. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you so much.

[00:32:11] Fungi: Thank you for having me.

[00:32:12] Hosts (A/N): Thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed it, and you can check out all the episodes by searching Afrika design Afrika with a K on your favorite podcast player or heading to afri ka.design And the next episode we'll have sharing with us. His project sounds of freedom. an audio experience that challenges us to go back in time and try to understand what freedom fighters used to go through.